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	<title>Comments on: Why I will never vote Conservative</title>
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	<link>http://www.murkyview.com/archives/2005/04/20/why-i-will-never-vote-conservative/</link>
	<description>Perspectives on Media, Climate, Energy, Politics... in Port Alberni, BC, Canada, the World</description>
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		<title>By: jane m</title>
		<link>http://www.murkyview.com/archives/2005/04/20/why-i-will-never-vote-conservative/comment-page-1/#comment-1982</link>
		<dc:creator>jane m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:16:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.murkyview.com/archives/2005/04/20/why-i-will-never-vote-conservative/#comment-1982</guid>
		<description>Again, David, thanks for the insights.  I suspect you work for the State Dept :) you seem so scholarly in your perspective.  I&#039;m going to save your predictions for further pondering.  I&#039;m most interested in the coming world situation and how the US will fit into the larger scheme of things.  To me the use of nuclear weapons is unthinkable by anybody.  

I believe the controversy over gay marriage is heightened due to the proposed legalities being rushed and yes, that has created a backlash.  Only two or three years ago, the average American had never even contemplated such an idea.  It seemed totally preposterous to me when the discussion began or reached my ears.  However, I, too, realized that if legally we who care about the moral fabric of our country can believe that divorce is an acceptable outcome to a failed marriage, then why not same sex marriage.  Both are prohibited by the Christian scriptures (although that is debated adamantly in some circles) and I have been converted to the reality that all so-called immoral human behavior does not necessarily need to be prohibited by law.  In other words, I believe that same sex marriage or some form of legality will be a reality here in the US within a decade of two.  The average American just needs some time to get used to the idea.  

The reason I don&#039;t get very agitated by the Religious Right in our political arena, is that the overwhelming majority of Americans are not extremist and don&#039;t have the energy to be so.  Moderation is what is comfortable.  And that is what we get in the long run.  Remember prohibition?  Well, me neither but I read about it.  It was just an experiment that failed.  
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again, David, thanks for the insights.  I suspect you work for the State Dept <img src='http://www.murkyview.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  you seem so scholarly in your perspective.  I&#8217;m going to save your predictions for further pondering.  I&#8217;m most interested in the coming world situation and how the US will fit into the larger scheme of things.  To me the use of nuclear weapons is unthinkable by anybody.  </p>
<p>I believe the controversy over gay marriage is heightened due to the proposed legalities being rushed and yes, that has created a backlash.  Only two or three years ago, the average American had never even contemplated such an idea.  It seemed totally preposterous to me when the discussion began or reached my ears.  However, I, too, realized that if legally we who care about the moral fabric of our country can believe that divorce is an acceptable outcome to a failed marriage, then why not same sex marriage.  Both are prohibited by the Christian scriptures (although that is debated adamantly in some circles) and I have been converted to the reality that all so-called immoral human behavior does not necessarily need to be prohibited by law.  In other words, I believe that same sex marriage or some form of legality will be a reality here in the US within a decade of two.  The average American just needs some time to get used to the idea.  </p>
<p>The reason I don&#8217;t get very agitated by the Religious Right in our political arena, is that the overwhelming majority of Americans are not extremist and don&#8217;t have the energy to be so.  Moderation is what is comfortable.  And that is what we get in the long run.  Remember prohibition?  Well, me neither but I read about it.  It was just an experiment that failed.</p>
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		<title>By: David Billington</title>
		<link>http://www.murkyview.com/archives/2005/04/20/why-i-will-never-vote-conservative/comment-page-1/#comment-1979</link>
		<dc:creator>David Billington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.murkyview.com/archives/2005/04/20/why-i-will-never-vote-conservative/#comment-1979</guid>
		<description>Jane,

I don&#039;t think there is any sentiment in Germany for militarism.  But there is still a lot of nervousness about Russia.  If the American nuclear umbrella is withdrawn and Russia moves back into eastern Europe, Germany will be much less secure and might want to acquire nuclear weapons.  The alternative would be for the European Union to become a federation with its own armed forces.  The Germans want this but the British don&#039;t and the French are ambivalent.  I&#039;m afraid Europe without the United States would be a much less stable place.

Asia is even worse.  The recent tensions between China and Japan show how close to the surface historic enmities still are.  If America pulls out, the Japanese will acquire nuclear weapons and tensions with China could escalate.  Russia could also have renewed problems with China if the latter wants the resources and land of Siberia and Central Asia.  Europe can stay neutral in any confrontation between America and an Asian great power, but if nuclear weapons are exchanged in any quantity the fallout will circle the northern hemisphere and rain down on everyone.  

The only real solution is for NATO and the EU to absorb most of Eurasia and form so huge an alliance and community that it can deter any single nation from going to war with a neighbor.  The United States has to be involved for that to work.

You make a good point about hedonism and utilitarian ethics being as dangerous as religion, if taken too far.  I didn&#039;t mean to imply that one was any less dangerous than the other.  At the moment conservatives are in the ascendancy and so their issues are the ones that dominate the agenda.  

Personally I think the values debate is mostly an expression of post-1960s backlash.  Anyone calling in the name of family values for a federal amendment to outlaw gay marriage, and not an amendment to outlaw divorce, isn&#039;t serious about morality.  There was no middle ground over laws outlawing racial intermarriage and there is no middle ground here.  But time will settle the issue.   

The reason why I worry about religion in public life is that people can lose faith in moderation if their lives become more insecure.  It is as much the fault of liberalism that so many Americans have turned to fundamentalism for a sense of direction.  But the civic culture will break down if party conflict turns into religious warfare.  I think we will pull back from this but it worries me how close we have come.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jane,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think there is any sentiment in Germany for militarism.  But there is still a lot of nervousness about Russia.  If the American nuclear umbrella is withdrawn and Russia moves back into eastern Europe, Germany will be much less secure and might want to acquire nuclear weapons.  The alternative would be for the European Union to become a federation with its own armed forces.  The Germans want this but the British don&#8217;t and the French are ambivalent.  I&#8217;m afraid Europe without the United States would be a much less stable place.</p>
<p>Asia is even worse.  The recent tensions between China and Japan show how close to the surface historic enmities still are.  If America pulls out, the Japanese will acquire nuclear weapons and tensions with China could escalate.  Russia could also have renewed problems with China if the latter wants the resources and land of Siberia and Central Asia.  Europe can stay neutral in any confrontation between America and an Asian great power, but if nuclear weapons are exchanged in any quantity the fallout will circle the northern hemisphere and rain down on everyone.  </p>
<p>The only real solution is for NATO and the EU to absorb most of Eurasia and form so huge an alliance and community that it can deter any single nation from going to war with a neighbor.  The United States has to be involved for that to work.</p>
<p>You make a good point about hedonism and utilitarian ethics being as dangerous as religion, if taken too far.  I didn&#8217;t mean to imply that one was any less dangerous than the other.  At the moment conservatives are in the ascendancy and so their issues are the ones that dominate the agenda.  </p>
<p>Personally I think the values debate is mostly an expression of post-1960s backlash.  Anyone calling in the name of family values for a federal amendment to outlaw gay marriage, and not an amendment to outlaw divorce, isn&#8217;t serious about morality.  There was no middle ground over laws outlawing racial intermarriage and there is no middle ground here.  But time will settle the issue.   </p>
<p>The reason why I worry about religion in public life is that people can lose faith in moderation if their lives become more insecure.  It is as much the fault of liberalism that so many Americans have turned to fundamentalism for a sense of direction.  But the civic culture will break down if party conflict turns into religious warfare.  I think we will pull back from this but it worries me how close we have come.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.murkyview.com/archives/2005/04/20/why-i-will-never-vote-conservative/comment-page-1/#comment-1978</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:29:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.murkyview.com/archives/2005/04/20/why-i-will-never-vote-conservative/#comment-1978</guid>
		<description>Worth mentioning that the size of the current American deficit dwarfs all spending on the so-called War on Terror. Although it is a cause, it is not the only cause of America&#039;s money troubles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Worth mentioning that the size of the current American deficit dwarfs all spending on the so-called War on Terror. Although it is a cause, it is not the only cause of America&#8217;s money troubles.</p>
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		<title>By: jane m</title>
		<link>http://www.murkyview.com/archives/2005/04/20/why-i-will-never-vote-conservative/comment-page-1/#comment-1977</link>
		<dc:creator>jane m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:01:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.murkyview.com/archives/2005/04/20/why-i-will-never-vote-conservative/#comment-1977</guid>
		<description>Chris, you seem, ever since Jade was born, to be inordinately preoccupied with &quot;poo&quot;....hmmm.

Anyway, two can play the poet&#039;s game:

Here&#039;s to Chris,
he loves to dis
the good ole USA.
In the end 
he will say
he is our friend
but .....
seems to show us
in the strangest way.

:) :) :)

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, you seem, ever since Jade was born, to be inordinately preoccupied with &#8220;poo&#8221;&#8230;.hmmm.</p>
<p>Anyway, two can play the poet&#8217;s game:</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s to Chris,<br />
he loves to dis<br />
the good ole USA.<br />
In the end<br />
he will say<br />
he is our friend<br />
but &#8230;..<br />
seems to show us<br />
in the strangest way.</p>
<p> <img src='http://www.murkyview.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  <img src='http://www.murkyview.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  <img src='http://www.murkyview.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: jane m</title>
		<link>http://www.murkyview.com/archives/2005/04/20/why-i-will-never-vote-conservative/comment-page-1/#comment-1976</link>
		<dc:creator>jane m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:23:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.murkyview.com/archives/2005/04/20/why-i-will-never-vote-conservative/#comment-1976</guid>
		<description>David

Excellent comment.  You see things with a wider vision than most I&#039;ve read lately.  But I wonder, Does the US, France and the UK still fear German and Japanese rearmament and potential for agressive nationalism?  From what I read of sentiment in both countries, especially Germany, they still struggle with the guilt and shame of WWII and are adamant foes of any type of militaristic ideology and the Iraqi war is one of the chief reasons why the US is so unpopular at the moment on the European continent.  I don&#039;t see them as partnering with us militarily to forestall Asian military power.

I thing also you may exaggerate the potential here in the US for religious domination of the political ideology.  I don&#039;t think that a hedonistic society where our family life and public morals promote only self-gratification with little responsibility and easy answers to complex ethical questions will be more likely to preserve our democratic freedoms and could lead to tyranny just as easily as a repressive society would.  That would be a completely extreme outcome of the goals of the red state voters.

Most American conservatives are merely expressing &quot;let&#039;s stop and consider the long-term effect of the changes the Left is promoting &quot;.  We are in the midst of a national debate on many issues centered around the ubiquitous expressions of &quot;values&quot; and what they mean and what they should be in our society.  As is usual, I foresee over time a moderation of many views until we meet somewhere in the middle.  The extreme-left and the extreme-right are neither one likely to prevail with its particular ideology in the long run.  At least I fervently hope so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David</p>
<p>Excellent comment.  You see things with a wider vision than most I&#8217;ve read lately.  But I wonder, Does the US, France and the UK still fear German and Japanese rearmament and potential for agressive nationalism?  From what I read of sentiment in both countries, especially Germany, they still struggle with the guilt and shame of WWII and are adamant foes of any type of militaristic ideology and the Iraqi war is one of the chief reasons why the US is so unpopular at the moment on the European continent.  I don&#8217;t see them as partnering with us militarily to forestall Asian military power.</p>
<p>I thing also you may exaggerate the potential here in the US for religious domination of the political ideology.  I don&#8217;t think that a hedonistic society where our family life and public morals promote only self-gratification with little responsibility and easy answers to complex ethical questions will be more likely to preserve our democratic freedoms and could lead to tyranny just as easily as a repressive society would.  That would be a completely extreme outcome of the goals of the red state voters.</p>
<p>Most American conservatives are merely expressing &#8220;let&#8217;s stop and consider the long-term effect of the changes the Left is promoting &#8220;.  We are in the midst of a national debate on many issues centered around the ubiquitous expressions of &#8220;values&#8221; and what they mean and what they should be in our society.  As is usual, I foresee over time a moderation of many views until we meet somewhere in the middle.  The extreme-left and the extreme-right are neither one likely to prevail with its particular ideology in the long run.  At least I fervently hope so.</p>
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